世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

我们先来看看1983年开始发现的巴基鯨（Pakicetus）

这是下面是当初发表在science上的重建图：

封面上的艺术画：

那么这么一张美图的根据是什么呢？就是下面图中那几根蓝色的头骨：

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

神创论从来不称自己是科学而是经得起科学检验的信仰。而进化论却自称是科学。我相信老兄明白信仰和科学的区别。

我很清楚信仰和科学的区别，可是“神创论从来不称自己是科学而是经得起科学检验的信仰“这句话说明克哥你不清楚。

 

[irene999]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

那么这么一张美图的根据是什么呢？就是下面图中那几根蓝色的头骨：

还有吗？继续听课。

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

我们先来看看1983年开始发现的巴基鯨（Pakicetus）

这是下面是当初发表在science上的重建图：

封面上的艺术画：

那么这么一张美图的根据是什么呢？就是下面图中那几根蓝色的头骨：

This fossil material was found in fluvial red sediments, or river-produced deposits colored by material leached from iron ores. This formation is thus a terrestrial or continental deposit. The fossil remains associated with Pakicetus is dominated by land mammals. Nonmammalian remains include other terrestrial remains such as snails, fishes (particularly catfish), turtles, and crocodiles. This evidence indicates a fluvial and continental rather than a marine environment as would be expected for a whale or whale-like creature.

The authors state that the basicranium (only the back portion of the cranium was found) is unequivocally that of a primitive cetacean. On the basis of the brief description given in the article (eight lines of the text) one has no way of knowing whether that is true other than the declaration by the authors. It seems highly significant in that respect, however, that the auditory mechanism of Pakicetus was that of a land mammal rather than that of a whale, since there is no evidence that it could hear directionally under water nor is there any evidence of vascularization of the middle ear to maintain pressure during diving.

The teeth of Pakicetus are said by the authors to resemble those of terrestrial mesonychid Condylarthra and also to be similar to teeth of middle Eocene archeocete Cetacea such as Protocetus and Indocetus. Mesonychids are thought to be terrestrial mammals that were hoofed and possibly fed on carrion, mollusks, or tough vegetable matter.7 The authors mention two other "primitive cetaceans," Gandakasia and Ichthyolestes, known only from teeth, as being found in the same formation with Pakicetus. These have been described by West,8 and had earlier been identified as land mammals (specifically mesonychids). West, however, reassigned them to the order Cetacea.

Not a single fragment of the postcranial skeleton of these creatures has been found, so we have no idea what they really looked like. The fact that their remains were found in a terrestrial fluvial deposit with fossils of many other land animals, their teeth were very similar to known land animals, and their auditory mechanism was obviously not that of a whale, would seem to indicate, to say the very least, that the claim that a missing link between whales and land mammals has been found is premature. We are reminded of the admission of Professor Derek Ager (no friend of creationists) that practically every evolutionary story he had learned as a student has now been debunked.9 We suggest that Pakicetus will eventually join the ranks of the debunked "missing links" which include Trueman's Ostrea/Gryphea, Carruther's Zaphrentis, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Neanderthal Man, and the hominoid collarbone recently identified as a dolphin rib.10

http://www.icr.org/article/creating-missing-link-tale-about-whale/

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

又是Ctrl C和Ctrl V，克哥你没有自己话吗？

 

[snapshot]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

神爱世人，甚至将他的独生子赐给他们，叫一切信他的，不至灭亡，反得永生 (约 3:16)。

你若口里认耶稣为主，心里信神叫他从死里复活，就必得救。（罗 10:9)

不知道神的first language是英语，意大利语，还是以色列语 ??

 

[反清复明]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

不知道神的first language是英语，意大利语，还是以色列语，有人知道吗

广东话略带福建口音

 

[snapshot]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

广东话略带福建口音

一听到侬讲野俄就顶吾顺

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

又是Ctrl C和Ctrl V，克哥你没有自己话吗？

老兄，比较你自己的那几行字，这么说有点不好意思吧？

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

This fossil material was found in fluvial red sediments, or river-produced deposits colored by material leached from iron ores. This formation is thus a terrestrial or continental deposit. The fossil remains associated with Pakicetus is dominated by land mammals. Nonmammalian remains include other terrestrial remains such as snails, fishes (particularly catfish), turtles, and crocodiles. This evidence indicates a fluvial and continental rather than a marine environment as would be expected for a whale or whale-like creature.

The authors state that the basicranium (only the back portion of the cranium was found) is unequivocally that of a primitive cetacean. On the basis of the brief description given in the article (eight lines of the text) one has no way of knowing whether that is true other than the declaration by the authors. It seems highly significant in that respect, however, that the auditory mechanism of Pakicetus was that of a land mammal rather than that of a whale, since there is no evidence that it could hear directionally under water nor is there any evidence of vascularization of the middle ear to maintain pressure during diving.

The teeth of Pakicetus are said by the authors to resemble those of terrestrial mesonychid Condylarthra and also to be similar to teeth of middle Eocene archeocete Cetacea such as Protocetus and Indocetus. Mesonychids are thought to be terrestrial mammals that were hoofed and possibly fed on carrion, mollusks, or tough vegetable matter.7 The authors mention two other "primitive cetaceans," Gandakasia and Ichthyolestes, known only from teeth, as being found in the same formation with Pakicetus. These have been described by West,8 and had earlier been identified as land mammals (specifically mesonychids). West, however, reassigned them to the order Cetacea.

Not a single fragment of the postcranial skeleton of these creatures has been found, so we have no idea what they really looked like. The fact that their remains were found in a terrestrial fluvial deposit with fossils of many other land animals, their teeth were very similar to known land animals, and their auditory mechanism was obviously not that of a whale, would seem to indicate, to say the very least, that the claim that a missing link between whales and land mammals has been found is premature. We are reminded of the admission of Professor Derek Ager (no friend of creationists) that practically every evolutionary story he had learned as a student has now been debunked.9 We suggest that Pakicetus will eventually join the ranks of the debunked "missing links" which include Trueman's Ostrea/Gryphea, Carruther's Zaphrentis, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Neanderthal Man, and the hominoid collarbone recently identified as a dolphin rib.10

http://www.icr.org/article/creating-missing-link-tale-about-whale/

近18年后的2001年，“Pakicetus”的完整骨骼被发现了，是下面这个样子：

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

老兄，比较你自己的那几年行字，这么说有点不好意思吧？

如果大家都是用你的办法来辩论，我们不用继续下去了。

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

近18年后的2001年，完整的骨骼发现了，“Pakicetus”的完整骨骼被发现了，是下面这个样子的：

科学家们根据该完整骨骼画出来一张狼状的还原图：

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

比较下：

“鲸”头骨：

“狼”骨架：

“巴基鲸”：

狼状陆地动物：

Science220(4595):403–406, 22 April 1983

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

比较下：

“鲸”头骨：

“狼”骨架：

“巴基鲸”：

狼状陆地动物：


Science220(4595):403–406, 22 April 1983

[/QUOTE]

克哥一看就知道不懂科学。科学就是观察，提出假说，然后验证，所以一个学说在不同的证据下发生改变很正常。

 

[保尔柯察金]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

顶科学ps忽悠

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

7 January 2010，自然杂志报道：

Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland

The fish--tetrapod transition was thus seemingly quite well documented. There was a consensus that the divergence between some elpistostegalians (such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys) and tetrapods might have occurred during the Givetian, 391--385 Myr ago. Coeval with the earliest fossil tetrapods, trackways dating to the Late Devonian were evidence for their ability to walk or crawl on shores.
Now, however, Niedźwiedzki et al. lob a grenade into that picture. They report the stunning discovery of tetrapod trackways with distinct digit imprints from Zachemie, Poland, that are unambiguously dated to the lowermost Eifelian (397 Myr ago). This site (an old quarry) has yielded a dozen trackways made by several individuals that ranged from about 0.5 to 2.5 metres in total length, and numerous isolated footprints found on fragments of scree. The tracks predate the oldest tetrapod skeletal remains by 18 Myr and, more surprisingly, the earliest elpistostegalian fishes by about 10 Myr.

在波兰发现了比科学家们认为的最早的四足类脊椎动物早了1800万年的四足类动物脚印，比它们的“祖先”鲸 早了1000万年！

Jennifer Clack: the track discovery " blows the whole story out of the water."

Per Ahlberg： "These results force us to reconsider our whole picture of the transition from fish to land animals"

(Per Ahlberg和Jennifer A. Clack是两位鱼到四足动物进化的专家)

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

克哥一看就知道不懂科学。科学就是观察，提出假说，然后验证，所以一个学说在不同的证据下发生改变很正常。

我关注的是这个在2001年就被"改变"了的“科学证据”，现在还有"懂科学的人"理直气壮地用来支持进化论。

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

克哥你知道你转的是什么吗？真是笑死人了，你用的是google翻译吧？

7 January 2010，自然杂志报道：

Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland

The fish--tetrapod transition was thus seemingly quite well documented. There was a consensus that the divergence between some elpistostegalians (such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys) and tetrapods might have occurred during the Givetian, 391--385 Myr ago. Coeval with the earliest fossil tetrapods, trackways dating to the Late Devonian were evidence for their ability to walk or crawl on shores.
Now, however, Niedźwiedzki et al. lob a grenade into that picture. They report the stunning discovery of tetrapod trackways with distinct digit imprints from Zachemie, Poland, that are unambiguously dated to the lowermost Eifelian (397 Myr ago). This site (an old quarry) has yielded a dozen trackways made by several individuals that ranged from about 0.5 to 2.5 metres in total length, and numerous isolated footprints found on fragments of scree. The tracks predate the oldest tetrapod skeletal remains by 18 Myr and, more surprisingly, the earliest elpistostegalian fishes by about 10 Myr.

在波兰发现了比科学家们认为的最早的四足类脊椎动物早了1800万年的四足类动物脚印，比它们的“祖先”鲸 早了1000万年！

Jennifer Clack: the track discovery " blows the whole story out of the water."

Per Ahlberg： "These results force us to reconsider our whole picture of the transition from fish to land animals"

(Per Ahlberg和Jennifer A. Clack是两位鱼到四足动物进化的专家)

 

[confiture]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

我关注的是这个在2001年就被"改变"了的“科学证据”，现在还有"懂科学的人"理直气壮地用来支持进化论。

巴基鲸完整骨骼的发现，更加支持了原来的学说，改变的只是复原图。克哥你是卧底吧？

http://nyit.edu/medicine/research/cetacean_family_tree_pakicetus_spp/

 

[Chris88]

回复: 世界基督教发展现状：数据说话

7 January 2010，自然杂志报道：

Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland

The fish--tetrapod transition was thus seemingly quite well documented. There was a consensus that the divergence between some elpistostegalians (such as Tiktaalik or Panderichthys) and tetrapods might have occurred during the Givetian, 391--385 Myr ago. Coeval with the earliest fossil tetrapods, trackways dating to the Late Devonian were evidence for their ability to walk or crawl on shores.
Now, however, Niedźwiedzki et al. lob a grenade into that picture. They report the stunning discovery of tetrapod trackways with distinct digit imprints from Zachemie, Poland, that are unambiguously dated to the lowermost Eifelian (397 Myr ago). This site (an old quarry) has yielded a dozen trackways made by several individuals that ranged from about 0.5 to 2.5 metres in total length, and numerous isolated footprints found on fragments of scree. The tracks predate the oldest tetrapod skeletal remains by 18 Myr and, more surprisingly, the earliest elpistostegalian fishes by about 10 Myr.

在波兰发现了比科学家们认为的最早的四足类脊椎动物早了1800万年的四足类动物脚印，比它们的“祖先”鲸 早了1000万年！

Jennifer Clack: the track discovery " blows the whole story out of the water."

Per Ahlberg： "These results force us to reconsider our whole picture of the transition from fish to land animals"

(Per Ahlberg和Jennifer A. Clack是两位鱼到四足动物进化的专家)

你帮我翻译一下？